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Old 09-07-2008, 08:58 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Default Holley 4412-2 500cfm

Hi y'all, I was cleaning the shop and sorting out parts and I found a 2V Holley 4412-2, 500cfm. Has any one tried to run one on a Scout, besides me? I put it on my 75 for a while couple of things I did not like was the elec. choke and mpg seems like it went to h_ll. I probably did not have a perfect install, I just slapped it on and got it to run.
Do you think it would be worth another try? Looks like a 2300 carb.
Ron
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:43 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Default Re: Holley 4412-2 500cfm

Ron,

I've done considerable experimentation with a 4412...and in my opinion it simply is NOT suitable for the "breathing" characteristics of the 304/345 motors. I will be trying a fresh one I have soon on my 392 however using a 2V-to-4V adapter (adapters are NOT the preferred way to swap carbs around!). And is really don't think it will pan out there either, but only one way to find out!

The 4412 is NOT the same carb as the ever-popular LIST 7448/350cfm version that I pimp so heavily. It IS part of the ever popular "2300 modular" family. That has NOTHING to do with it's "cfm" rating, but internally it's calibrated way too fat for any IH SV motor! By the time the "adjustable" components in that carb are manipulated the "balance" is all upset and it just does NOT provide the drivability desired for these motors under any condition. For a flatout mud/sand drag rig....maybe?

While the two LIST numbers are based upon similar componentry the metering blocks are matched to each unit, simply swapping around metering blocks is only part of the deal, the main body passages are also quite different.

Also, in some applications, the throttle plates will hang up in the intake manifold plenum unless a spacer which has a modified inlet side is used to allow full swing of the plates. This is a DANGEROUS sitch and may be a condition that the throttle return spring cannot overcome.

Are you SURE the electric choke conversion (those are NOT available with an electric choke from Holley) is functional??? The vacuum passage that provides internal choke "pulloff" is not drilled through, it's a dead end! Not so onna 7448 which is designed for using the electric choke as an option.

The 4412 carb was originally intended for the center carb on some triple two barrel manifold/carb induction systems. And they are by far the most common "rules" carb used in all forms of circle track racing under many U.S. sanctioning groups and local tracks.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:48 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Default Re: Holley 4412-2 500cfm

hey ron, hope everythings goin ok . in response to the 500 cfm question, according to michael the answer is no.. i mentioned this in a post and he said to use the 350 cfm. somewhere there's a formula that is used to figure cfm requirements . its based on bore stroke and something else. ive used it before to do a sbc 400 and at like 7000 rpms this engine only required like 475 cfm to run it.. its based on volumetric efficency which is somewhere around 80% for most v8 engines. i maybe wrong but i believe this is correct. anyway. the smaller carb will produce more low end torque and better fuel economy thru out the driving range. this is from first hand experience . if im wrong , i will take the beatdown with dignity.
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Old 09-07-2008, 09:51 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Default Re: Holley 4412-2 500cfm

damn he types faster than i do!!!!
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Old 09-07-2008, 10:50 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Default Re: Holley 4412-2 500cfm

Yawl are correctamundo for the VE "volumetric efficiency" formula that is commonly throwed out by the "performance" carb marketing guapo. But...

The VE stuff is for "normal" engines, NOT IH-design tractor motors that are asthmatic as crackwhores! Again these motors ain't Chryfordrolets (but "similar" in design to them oldskool GMC V6 truck motors), so very little in the way of standardized "performance" data calculation is relative to 'em. A TREMENDOUS amount of work needs to be done on any IH SV or I-4 head to make it flow some significant air and take real advantage of any performance cam profiles.

And...in the carb industry, the "measurement" of air flow volume (measured/called out in CFM) between a 2V induction system and a 4V induction system is completely different! So that "number" can't be used to compare apples to oranges!

The CFM of the 2V system is measured/taken at a standard pressure drop across the carb air horn at 3.0"Hg, while the 4V system uses a standard factor of 1.5"Hg. And, all this "CFM" talk is simply relative as a point of discussion/identification, it is not anywhere close to an "absolute"!

And...nearly ALL the commonly-used reference materials in print are assuming that "performance" means straight-line WOT kinda stuff, or circle track motors runnin' near WOT continuous also. Same for marine apps that run under CONTINUOUS max load due to the fact the prop is CONSTANTLY pushin' against water, a marine engine NEVER "coasts" and is never not under some load except when the tranny/gearbox is in neutral! The literature is never concerned with drivability (except inna WOT "launch"! or the hookup comin' off a corner)! Not hardly real world stuff like RV/tow use, rockcrawlin', or grocery getter!

Don't get me wrong...my roots are in drag racing and all forms of motorcycle motorsport and water ski tow boat stuff. But we gotta consider the application we're mostly playin' with here regarding IH stuff. Monte's Pink 440 Dodge-powered mud drag rig that I set up with a Holley 750 centerhung is a WAY different from Ron's DD SII! One has to actually start and run when asked to and be drivable through a school zone at 7ayem, Pink only gits started a few times a weekend inna mudhole, it idles at 1,000rpm, and it's WOT all the way when lit off!
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Old 09-07-2008, 11:15 AM   #6 (permalink)
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Default Re: Holley 4412-2 500cfm

Michael and Tow; Things are going well, I took the week off to spend with my wife so we are good, thanks for asking. Now back to the carb, Michael you are refreshing my memory I had to buy the choke kit and the guy who was helping my at the time was in the circle racing community. I got it running pretty good on my 75 but I never needed the choke that much since it was summer. Another reason I started thinking on this again my wife gave me my Bday present early, new exhaust system on my 74 with Flowmaster 40's WOW!!. Thinking preformance.
But my 2210 is doing just fine. Thanks




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Old 09-07-2008, 01:58 PM   #7 (permalink)
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Default Re: Holley 4412-2 500cfm

OK Ron! The STORY is in the pics!

First off, the electric choke kit ya used is for an "external" vacuum source carb, that is why that small nipple not connected to anything is coming out the bottom of the pulloff piston chamber! That version would have to be used with this carb since there is no vacuum supply provision in the main body.

And...someone had to add those three spacers to the gap between the main body and the choke body to space it out so the fast idle lever (red plastic dealee) would clear.

The real vacuum pulloff port for a 7448 LIST 2300 is that small area with the counterbore on the back side of the choke body, that would have been sealed with a self-adhesive cork composite gasket to the corresponding manifold vacuum passage in the main body. Think of the choke body mounted without the spacers!

Also, it looks like the manual choke version throttle arm lever for the fast idle has been bent into position instead of using the "electric" arm set that comes with the choke kit. But that is hard to tell without having it in my hands!

There were several "variations" of the 4412 available over the years, one particular for a small block Chev performance app, I "think" that is what you have. The current offering is somewhat updated from that one, though it does have the "late"-type fuel bowl screws??!! But at least the fuel inlet fitting for that bowl is on the correct side for an IH app!

The other two vacuum ports are manifold vacuum source, that carb has no provision for ported vacuum since it's a performance item! In contrast, the vacuum port on the passenger side of the metering block on the 7448 version IS ported vacuum. Those carbs were intended for two different uses, the 4412 is a circle track carb, the 7448 is streetable AND may be used in circle track if that is what the rules allow for.

It has a 50cc accel pump system also, much more "volume" per discharge cycle than any IH needs, even if you change down to the smallest shooter, the accel pump system will be difficult to dial in for drivability...it's OK for a WOT launch though. And the accel pump actuator cam is WAY too much lift and duration for any IH motor, those can be changed out and are part of dialing in these carbs for any engine app.
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Old 09-07-2008, 03:33 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Default Re: Holley 4412-2 500cfm

Thanks for the info Michael, So in other words if I want to drive around in a circle with WOT I have the carb. LOL
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